Wednesday, December 28, 2011

The Timing of the Rapture, Pre/Mid/Post-Trib?

Originally posted Sept. 10, 2008

This is the 3rd in a series of 3
#1 "Mystery Babylon" is the Roman Catholic Church
#2 "The Antichrist, the False Prophet, and the Mark of the Beast"

*Slide #1-Intro slide
The rapture is the great "catching away" of all those who have trusted Christ - living and dead. The word "rapture" is not found in scripture. It is from the Latin Vulgate (ancient Latin translation of the Bible) "rapere" which means to "catch up." In 1 Thess 4:17 the Bible states that we will be "caught up" and this is the phrase where the Vulgate used the word "rapere."
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is the definitive passage that describes the event we call the rapture.

1 Thess 4:
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The fact that the saints will be raptured is clear in scripture and there has not been much debate on that fact. However, the timing of the rapture has been hotly debated for centuries. So, the question is, when will the rapture occur?

*Slide #2-The Timing of the Rapture;
The Pre-Tribulation
By far, the most popular view is the Pre-Tribulation position. The “Left Behind” books and movies perpetuate this view. Teachers of the Pre-Tribulation view believe Jesus will rapture His people at the beginning of the 70th Week. God's people (except those who are saved during the 7 years) are completely absent from the earth during the last 7 years, while God’s wrath is being poured out on the earth, going through the Bema Judgment and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

There are three significant events that are specific to this view. First, this view sees the seals, trumpets and vials as all signifying God's wrath and that they are poured out upon mankind during the entire 7 years. Second, the 144,000 Jews spoken of in Revelation chapter seven are seen as Jewish evangelists who will usher in the greatest revival in history - which is the third significant event.

Pre-trib problems
There are some scriptural problems with the Pre-Tribulation view. The first is that scripture mentions explicitly that the return of Christ will be unmistakable. According to the Pre-Tribulation view, the rapture will be only known to those taken to heaven. The rest of the world will know only that multitudes have disappeared. However, scripture indicates on several occasions that when Christ returns it will be obvious.

Slide #3-Mat 24:
26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Slide #4-Luke 17:
23. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Slide #5-Rev 1: 7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

If the rapture is a "secret" to the world, how could these scriptures be relevant? Furthermore, why would Christ have not explicitly told his followers that in the last day they would be raptured, and then God's wrath would be poured upon the world? Why is the pre-tribulational rapture missing from end-time passages?

Another problem is that according to this view, the Holy Spirit will be absent from the world having been "taken out of the way" by the rapture of the church. Therefore, how do we explain the greatest revival in history and the great multitude saved when the Holy Spirit is no longer in the world?

Furthermore, scripture tells us that rather than a multitude saved, God will cause those who reject Him to be deluded into delighting in wickedness...

Slide #6-2 Thess 2:
10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

We are also told in the book of Revelation that even after suffering God's wrath people will still not repent.

Slide #7-Rev 9: 20. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: (this is after the 6th trumpet has sounded)

Rather than a great revival taking place, it seems that people will dive more into wickedness and rejecting God than ever before.

If there is a pre-tribulational rapture, then according to Matthew 24, there must be two raptures...

Slide #8-Matt 24: 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Son of Man in the clouds, loud trumpet call, send his angels, gather his elect... it sounds a lot like the rapture doesn’t it? Therefore, if the rapture has already happened, there will be another very similar event - supposedly directed at the Jews. The scripture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 also poses a problem.

Slide #9- 2 Thess 2
1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This passage begins "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him..." Does this sound like he is speaking of the rapture? Then he goes on to say that "that day" will not come until the "man of lawlessness" (the Antichrist) is revealed. So what comes first, The Antichrist or the rapture?

The Mid-Tribulation position is that the rapture will occur at the mid-point of the 70th Week when Antichrist demands the world worship him. Stronger evidence, as we already covered. The antichrist won’t be revealed until the middle of the 7 years, and the rapture can’t happen before then. But the “Day of the Lord” is his coming both for the church and to pour out his wrath.

Slide #10 Isaiah 13:6-10
6. Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8. And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Slide #11- Isaiah 13:11-13
11. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
 See Isaiah 24:20- The Earth shall Reel To and Fro Like a Drunkard & The Volcanic Return of Jesus Christ

Slide #12-Matt.24:
29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Slide #13- Luke 21: 25. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26. Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Starting to sound like the post-tribulation position, is it? Some post-trib teacher believe the saints will endure the wrath of God?

There are some scriptural problems with that point of view:

Slide #14-Romans 5: 9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Slide #15- 1 Thess 1 10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Slide #16 1 Thess 5: 9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

A seal was used to authenticate an official proclamation, having the sovereign’s official seal impressed upon melted wax. Seeing the official seal of the King meant “Pay attention-this is vital information from your KING!”

End Time Coming Attractions: SEALS-The LONG VIEW- Ending with Rapture

Slide #17- 1st seal- White Horse- Rev. 6:
1. And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

False Religion- control by spiritual manipulation-RCC/Pope. World religion-Global Ethic- Remember we are talking about a desire for world domination-This is the spirit of Nimrod- Babylon

Slide # 18- 2nd Seal-Red Horse- Rev.6:
3. And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Control by militancy- UN Army- World control.... remember Michael New?

Here Come the UN Army & Police by Thomas R. Eddlem October 17, 2005
Source: The New American
"The liberal media have long portrayed the Bush administration as hostile to the United Nations. Yet, Bush's State Department signed a document on September 15, 2005 that would result in an unprecedented militarization of the United Nations.
The 2005 World Summit Outcomes document would (among other things) strengthen the military "stand-by arrangements" already in existence with 80 nations (for the United Nations to call up troops from national armies) and would initiate a new standing UN police force. World Summit Outcomes stipulates: "We endorse the creation of an initial operating capability for a standing police capacity to provide coherent, effective and responsible start-up capability for the policing component of the United Nations peacekeeping missions and to assist existing missions through the provision of advice and expertise."
The proposed UN "police capacity" would be charged (at first) with keeping order in zones where UN forces have already been deployed. It's no great stretch, however, to see this gradually mutating into a de facto global police force enforcing UN mandates and arresting individuals for prosecution and trial by UN institutions. Along these lines, it should be especially noteworthy to American gun owners that World Summit Outcomes champions a favorite UN theme: the elimination of civilian ownership of small arms and light weapons. As we have reported extensively in past issues, the 2001 UN "Conference on the Illicit Trade in Small Arms and Light Weapons in All Its Aspects" left no doubt as to the organization's animus toward private ownership of firearms, making no distinction between criminals, terrorists, and law-abiding citizens.
The enhanced new UN "peacekeeping" army call-up arrangements would be roughly analogous to the U.S. National Guard system, whereby states maintain soldiers who can be called up by the federal government. In order to implement the world police and "world guard"-style global army, the document requires the United Nations to establish a Peace-building Commission that would be partnered with the World Bank and International Monetary Fund.
This raises the possibility that a standing UN army may soon be possible without the approval of national governments, even though our governments are providing the funding through the IMF and World Bank."

Slide #19- 3rd Seal-Black Horse- Rev.6:
5. And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Control by financial domination. World Bank- (for a world government) IMF-(Control governments) The Federal Reserve-implemented by Knights of Malta, International Bankers, ultimately controlled by the Jesuits, Rome, will force the “Mark of the Beast” on the world in the end. World wide currency
Notice the Oil and Wine cartels are NOT price controlled.

Slide # 20- 4th seal-Pale Horse- Rev.6:
7. And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Control by Terrorism, blocked rescue of famine relief (hunger-UN mishandling), AIDS, Islamic fascism (kill with the sword) school shootings, etc. Irvin Baxter Jr. of teaches: The pale (chloros or green) horse is the “spirit” of Islam. Death and hell followed. The pale horse is given power over 1/4 of the earth.

The Above 4 horses are also seen in Zech.6:
1. And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.
2. In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
3. And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
4. Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?
5. And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.
6. The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country.
7. And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.
8. Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country. (The spirit of capitalism works contrary to the Holy Spirit, even though most evangelicals seem to worship capitalism; the “prosperity” gospel stops true revival, and the seeking for the personal cross to bear.)

The Homeless One
By John H. Dearing
They borrowed a stall and that was not all;
They borrowed a manger, too.
They borrowed a bed to lay His head,
Yet He was the Savior true.
It was borrowed bread when the crowd was fed,
And all were satisfied.
He borrowed fish, too, and only a few;
Many fragments were left beside.
He borrowed a boat and set it afloat
Not far out from the shore.
He borrowed a seat and rested His feet,
As the word to the people He bore.
It came to pass that He borrowed an ass,
And the praise of the people was heard;
With borrowed garments, He trod on a borrowed road,
The Savior, fulfilling God’s Word.
He borrowed a room on his way to the tomb,
The Passover lamb to eat.
They borrowed a cave for the Master’s grave;
They borrowed the winding sheet.
Not reckoning the loss, He borrowed a cross,
And Barabbas, the owner, went free.
He borrowed the sin that was laid upon Him
And borrowed His death from ME

Not much of a capitalist, was he?

Philippians 2: 4. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus wasn’t interested in selfish consumerism. He didn’t promote a “name it and claim it” gospel. What was on his mind? Souls in eternity. Let this mind be in you...

Slide #21- 5th seal-the Martyrs
Rev.6:- 9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Slide # 22- 6th Seal-Rev.6:- the Day of Wrath announced- Beginning Trumpets and Vials
(Sealing the 144,000 Jews. Rev-7)
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; - Isaiah 24:20
13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Re-read Matt 24:29-31
29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Slide # 23-7th Seal –Silence-Angels stunned/ Humans standing in God’s glory-unscathed!/Rapture Rev.8: 1. And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour Ending in Rapture with the wrath of God being outpoured.

Slide #24 Rev.12:
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Slide #25 Rev. 12:
7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Slide #26 Rev.12:
12. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Trumpets-Sounded as the Heralding of the Coming King -

Slide #27-1st Trumpet Rev.8: begins the wraths of God: Beginning of 6th Seal
7. The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Slide #28- 2nd Trumpet- Rev.8:
8. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9. And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Slide #29- 3rd Trumpet-Wormwood Rev.8:
10. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11. And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Slide #30- 4th Trumpet Rev.8
12. And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

RE READ Matt.24

29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Slide #31- 5th Trumpet-Rev 9:
1. And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. (the abode of demons)
2. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. (compare with 6th seal)
3. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

During the 10 plagues of Moses day- after the first 3 of 10- plagues God spared the Hebrews from the remainder of His Wrath.

Slide #32- 6th Trumpet- Rev.9-China entering into the fray
13. And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14. Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Slide #33 7th Trumpet-Rapture-
Rev 10: 7. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Cor.15:
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (7th): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The rest not on slide-
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Slide #34- Rev. 11:
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. 18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, ( by the wrath-vials-those dead in trespasses and sin, not the great white throne judgment) and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Slide #35-The 7 Vials- the Wrath of God
On slide #1 - #7
1. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. (5th Seal-Martyrs?)
3. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
5. And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6. And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

On slide
7. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Slide #36- Rev 16:
2. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3. And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4. And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5. And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. (2nd and 3rd vial same as 2nd trumpet)

Slide #37- Rev 16:
8. And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
10. And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, (compare with 5th trumpet-Rev.9:1-4, slide 31)
11. And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12. And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. (compare with Rev.9:13-16- 6th trumpet-slide #32)

Slide #38- Rev.16:the 7th vial-The End -     See the Volcanic Return of Jesus Christ
17. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Slide #39- Armageddon- Ezekiel 38
Not on the slide:
1. And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2. Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3. And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4. And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5. Persia (Iran), Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6. Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
8. After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
9. Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
10. Thus saith the Lord God; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
11. And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
12. To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
13. Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
14. Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when My people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
15. And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16. And thou shalt come up against My people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
17. Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
18. And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19. For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20. So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

The verses on the slide:
22. And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. (Compare with beginning of wrath/Matt.24-6th Seal, etc) China enters shortly hereafter.
23. Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord.

The nations involved are as follows: (I lifted this from the internet without siting the source, apologies to originator)
· Gog - a title like Czar, Pharaoh or Prince referring to a leader.
· Magog - refers to Russia based on:
There is a genealogical tree of the events of this world. It is incontestable that the inhabitants of Gaul and Spain are descended from Gomer, and the Russians from Magog, his younger brother: one finds this genealogy in so many fat books!– Voltaire, Dictionnaire philosophique [2]
· Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus (Note: the Scythians are from areas in and near Russia):
Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians– Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews [3]
· Rosh - refers to Russia based on:
· Gesenius dictionary identifies it as Russians
· Meshech - identified as Moscow based on:
· Gesenius dictionary identifies it as Moschi
· Tubal - referring to the Tobol river
· Persia - refers to Iran
· Cush - Ethiopia and Sudan
· Put - Libya
· Gomer - Spain and France
· Togarmah - Turkey

SLIDE #40- Zech.12: 9. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
9. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Zech 14: 1. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints (holy ones- newer transl. possibly angels) with thee.
6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

11. And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

16. And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

2 Thess.2:
8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Rev.19: 7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18. That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev. 20: 1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The Millennial Reign of Christ

Slide #41
Isaiah 2: 4. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Rev.20: 6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Isaiah 11: 6. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 65: 17. For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

Slide #42
After the thousand yrs

6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You might also want to check out Dave MacPherson's Pre-Trib posting here

Sunday, December 25, 2011

Monday, December 12, 2011

Stop crying about Christmas being a "pagan" holiday

OK, this ain't gonna be DEEP.  I love deep.  I love bible study.  More than anything, I love the truth!  Jesus is the truth.  I love honoring Him in word and deed.  I love holidays that honor Him!  I love it that secularists, pagans, skeptics and the purely ignorant sit in front of their TVs during this season and get BOMBARDED with Christian themes, gospel stories and Charlie Browns Christmas with Linus reading from the gospel explaining the "true meaning of Christmas". 

It may be true that the day we celebrate our Lords birth was originally a pagan celebratory day honoring a false god, but I laugh.  "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28

Where is your heart?  I see December 25th as a day God stole the glory of a pagan god and turned it into one of His biggest days of the year.  It is one time of the year when the gospel story is told repeatedly, globally.  Same holds true with Easter.  So what if it once celebrated Semiramis.  It now proclaims Jesus!  It now retells the gospel everywhere.  Too commercial?  Yeah!  But the story still overpowers the spending!

Don't let the devil own any day.  They all belong to God!  Psm. 118: 24.  "This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."

Don't let any "Christian" preacher put you into condemnation over their personal convictions.  Romans 8: 1.  "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Don't fear the devil, don't forsake your loved traditions, if in them you honor God in your heart.  Don't  call it "x-mas", it's Christ-mas.   Don't let anyone tell you you can't say "Merry Christmas" at Christmas time.  If  they don't love Jesus they don't have to celebrate the holiday.  Just don't let 'em steal it back!  It's OURs.  We stole it fair and square! Ho, Ho, Ho, Ha, ha, haaa, haaa!

Friday, December 9, 2011

“Merkozy” Letter to EU: Now Is the Time to Strip Countries of Sovereignty

From The New

Written by Bob Adelmann   
Thursday, 08 December 2011 17:14
In his candid appraisal of the letter from Germany’s Angela Merkel and France’s Nicolas Sarkozy to the European Union meeting that starts Friday in Brussels, Dan Murphy makes clear that this summit will be different from the previous 20: This one is determined to override national sovereignty to save the euro. The core of the letter is the offer of the fatal alternative to the euro zone nations: Either give up essential sovereign control over your budgets to the EU, or destroy the euro.
The “Merkozy” letter said,
The current crisis has uncovered the deficiencies in the construction of the [European Monetary Union] mercilessly. We need to remedy those deficiencies…. We need more binding and more ambitious rules and commitments for the Euro area Member States. They should reflect that sharing a single currency means sharing responsibility for the Euro area as a whole. The building blocks of the new Stability and Growth Union are: A strengthened institutional architecture. Euro area governance needs to be substantially reinforced.
The problem, until now, has been the virtual impossibility of amending unanimously the various treaties under which the EU currently operates. With the clock ticking amid increasingly nervous financial markets, there is no time for that nicety. And so a way has been found: doing an end run around the process by using a little-known clause in the Schengen treaty to speed up implementation of the “strengthened institutional architecture” that is needed.
In a speech on Thursday in Marseille, Sarkozy expanded on just what the new agreement would require, along with guarded references to how it might be enforced. He said, “Never has [a united] Europe been so necessary. Never has it been in so much danger…. Never has the risk of a disintegration of Europe been so great. Europe is facing an extraordinarily dangerous situation.” What is needed, he said, is the ability to enforce budgetary discipline by penalizing those countries that overspend under the new rules.
In their joint letter, Merkel and Sarkozy’s proposed plan would
  1. Give the European Commission the power to impose penalties on nations that run excessive budget deficits (above 3% of GDP);
  2. Require each member to amend their state constitutions to require a balanced budget;
  3. Require each state to pay to the EU corporate taxes and financial transactions fees to pay for such enforcement; and
  4. Force any future bailouts that might be required to be paid for by taxpayers while protecting private banks and investors from losses (such as just happened in Greece).
In the event, however, that such a plan isn’t adopted over the weekend in Brussels, there is a more draconian plan going to be offered by Herman Van Rompuy, President of the European Council, called the “fiscal compact,” which doesn’t need approval by any parliaments or citizens at all. It will just be imposed from the top down. Said Sarkozy, “This is our duty. We have no other choice.”
Van Rompuy’s “fiscal compact” would strip away voting rights from EU members who are out of compliance, enforced by the executive arm of the EU. Sarkozy was opaque on whether such “enforcements” would involve military action or invasion of the offending countries, or just the forced removal of the recalcitrant elected officials who were dragging their heels on various austerity measures to be imposed to bring them back into compliance. But it is clear that the rhetoric in Brussels is being ramped up as the financial uncertainties in the markets escalate.
As Samuel Gregg, writing in the Acton Commentary noted,
The euro was always essentially about the use of an economic tool to realize a political grand design: European unification. Major backers of the common currency back in the 1990s, such as Jacques Delors and Helmut Kohl, never hid the fact that this was their ultimate ambition…. [It now appears that] much of Europe’s political class seems willing to go to almost any lengths to save the euro — including … [going] beyond the bounds permitted by EU treaty law and national constitutions.
As Murphy noted, “The call for bracing, immediate change should lead to a fascinating day [as] European leaders gather in Brussels.”

Wednesday, December 7, 2011

Reasons To Believe!

                   I am almost certain to have posted this before, but repetition is key to remembering!                                                                                                                             
Reasons I believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 through 6, including
a)      A literal  (real) Adam and Eve
b)      Everything was created in 6- 24hour days, God rested on the 7th day.
c)      A world wide flood that destroyed all land dwelling life, EXCEPT...
d)     Noah and the inhabitants of the ark.

It is the Word of God.  2 Tim.3-16 states...
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

      Science can only deal with what it can see, touch, weigh, examine in the physical/natural world.  God/Jesus deals with the SUPERNATURAL, He isn’t limited to the physical/natural world and its natural laws (gravity/time/death, etc.)  Evolutionists only believe what they can see-, touch, smell, and examine in a controlled environment. 
     We know that Jesus worked miracles all the time, contrary to nature.  He healed the sick instantly, raised the dead, calmed the raging sea, and withered a fig tree by talking to it.   He told prophecies, read peoples hearts, etc. Jesus was God AND man.

Jesus was the Jehovah of the O.T., the creator of all things in heaven and earth
Rev.1: 8. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,'' says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.''

John 1: 1.  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 2.  He was in the beginning with God.
 3.  All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Col. 1: 12.  giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
 13.  He has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
 14.  in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
 15.  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
 16.  For by Him (Jesus) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
 17.  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
 18.  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
 19.  For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,

Col.2: 8.  Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
9.      For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

Gen 1- each day was a morning and an evening-24hours.  Yom is the Hebrew word- means 24hr day.
Do you believe that God actually gave Moses the 10 Commandments?  Were they real?  YES!

The 4th Commandment; Exodus 20:
8.  "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
 9.  Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
 10.  but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
 11.  For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.  
 God wrote the 10 Commandments with his own finger- the pre-human born Jesus!
The genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11 go all the way back to Adam,, a real person!

Jesus believed the O.T. as historically accurate (He was an eye witness to it all, He created it all).

Matt.10: 15.  "Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!     Jesus believed this story, including Lot’s wife turning into a piller of salt.
Matt.12: 40.  "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”  ( He believed in Jonah and the whale)
Matt.19: 4.  And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning `made them male and female,'
 5.  "and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
 6.  "So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.''  (a literal Adam and a literal Eve)
Matt. 24: 37.  "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
 38.  "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
 39.  "and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”  (Jesus believed and preached that the flood was real, the ark was real, and the world was destroyed except for 8 people. )

Belief in “millions of years” contradicts the Word of God  on death, and disease, and assaults the character of God.  The fossil record proves a flood- judgment for sin, NOT millions of years!

In the beginning, everything was good... no death, no sickness, no carnivorous animals killing each other.  All creatures ate veggies. Gen.1: 29.  And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.
30.    "Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food''; and it was so.

Sin by a real Adam and Eve brought death, sickness onto the entire creation.  The 2nd Adam (Jesus) brings redemption to the entire universe, if we believe and obey the gospel.  It is the Word of God!

Saturday, December 3, 2011

Senate Wants the Military to Lock You Up Without Trial

Here’s the best thing that can be said about the new detention powers the Senate has tucked into next year’s defense bill: They don’t force the military to detain American citizens indefinitely without a trial. They just let the military do that. And even though the leaders of the military and the spy community have said they want no such power, the Senate is poised to pass its bill as early as tonight.

There are still changes swirling around the Senate, but this looks like the basic shape of the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act. Someone the government says is “a member of, or part of, al-Qaida or an associated force” can be held in military custody “without trial until the end of the hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force.” Those hostilities are currently scheduled to end the Wednesday after never. The move would shut down criminal trials for terror suspects.

But far more dramatically, the detention mandate to use indefinite military detention in terrorism cases isn’t limited to foreigners. It’s confusing, because two different sections of the bill seem to contradict each other, but in the judgment of the University of Texas’ Robert Chesney — a nonpartisan authority on military detention — “U.S. citizens are included in the grant of detention authority.”

An amendment that would limit military detentions to people captured overseas failed on Thursday afternoon. The Senate soundly defeated a measure to strip out all the detention provisions on Tuesday.

So despite the Sixth Amendment’s guarantee of a right to trial, the Senate bill would let the government lock up any citizen it swears is a terrorist, without the burden of proving its case to an independent judge, and for the lifespan of an amorphous war that conceivably will never end. And because the Senate is using the bill that authorizes funding for the military as its vehicle for this dramatic constitutional claim, it’s pretty likely to pass.
It would be one thing if the military was clamoring for the authority to become the nation’s jailer. But to the contrary: Defense Secretary Leon Panetta opposes the maneuver. So does CIA Director David Petraeus, who usually commands deference from senators in both parties. Pretty much every security official has lined up against the Senate detention provisions, from Director of National Intelligence James Clapper to FBI Director Robert Mueller, who worry that they’ll get in the way of FBI investigations of domestic terrorists. President Obama has promised to veto the bill.

Which is ironic. After all, Obama approved of the execution without trial of Anwar al-Awlaki, al-Qaida’s YouTube preacher, based entirely on the unproven assertion that Awlaki was dangerous. Awlaki was an American citizen. So Obama thinks he has the right to kill Americans the government says are terrorists, but he doesn’t want the military to lock them up forever without trial. OK then.

Weirder still, the bill’s chief architect, Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), tried to persuade skeptics that the bill wasn’t so bad. His pitch? “The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States,” he said on the Senate floor on Monday. The bill would just let the government detain a citizen in military custody, not force it to do that. Reassured yet?

Civil libertarians aren’t. Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) said it “denigrates the very foundations of this country.” Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) added, “it puts every single American citizen at risk.”

But there’s a reason this measure goes into the defense bill: Voting against the defense bill is usually considered political suicide. That’s why the bill will almost certainly pass tonight. If Obama backs down from his veto threat, get ready to see Americans at Guantanamo Bay.
Photo: U.S. Army
For an update on this information from Dave Hodges, please go here 
Update Jan 6, 2012-from The American Thinker: go here

Remember this video?


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